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Wednesday, August 10, 2011

This is brother Paul Currie note, i like that actually i had desire to write some like this today, and He did with out know what i have in my heart i really like that is reason i repost on my blog please take your time i going translate latter to Portuguese


I have now met several good Christian folk, mostly younger, some students, who have been hurt, and to some degree had been confused about "HOW" they ended up being labelled as dishnouring, divisive or rebellious. They are mostly the listeners or direct subjects of a few ministries that have caught on to a man-made docrine that has become popular, has reached New Zealand and and many other parts of the world, and does more damage to younger Christians by the words or actions it deliberately does not mention during the delivery of it's voiced topics, the craft of insinuation via silent messaging.



What did dishonour look like for Jesus in his day?



Jesus spoke very clearly on the occasion where he was being dishonoured. There was a people group primarily made up of the Pharisees who attempted to trap him with their crafty words. Jesus mention of dishonour is recorded in John 8:49 “I am not possessed by a demon, said Jesus, but I honour my Father and you dishonour me”.



Are such things really happening in churches today?



What degree of dishonour, abuse and carnality is actually occurring in churches today? It is certainly not happening in mine. What about yours? It must be happening somewhere, right?



If so, wherever it is ocurring, I would ask if the leadership of that place is following Matthew 18:15-17. I would also ask if there is an effective discipleship course that teaches newly born’s biblical precepts of conduct. I would also ask if there is a culture in place that promotes 'leading by example', and in that, being effective in promoting the ways of love and respect by offering it to the body in the first place.



If not, what are these ‘other allegedly bad’ behaviours which necessitate some elders of some churches to aggressively and repetitively deliver doctrines in blanket form from a pulpit about honouring, and by doing so, causing many to fear that they are surrounded by or personally involved with dishonouring? The principle of building a culture of honour sounds great, but the underlying methods and many of its applications as seen at large are not being administered in love at all, but with an unspoken accusation that such offence exists.



But wherever such offensive does exist, in the verse I pointed out above Jesus himself set out clear instructions for those who have genuine cases of sin:



Matthew 18:15-17 If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.



Clearly, if any person in the church believes his brother has sinned against him, by way of alleged dishonour, or by any other way, the above is to be followed.



If Jesus own teaching is not being followed to address offence, and an alternative teaching has arisen to replace it, it is the doctrine of a man. And what disposition or alleged behaviour between members of Christ’s Body does such a man's doctrine seek to control or mediate that Jesus' own teaching didn't sufficiently cover?





So what exactly are these ‘other allegedly sinful’ actions that pastors of today label as ‘dishonourable’? First let's have a brief look at what honour is not.



Honour does NOT mean ‘submission’ to a church elder because of his title, his position, the debt he holds against you, or his knowledge of your past sin.



Honour is NOT ‘obedience’ to what a man says on the basis that others fear to disobey him.



Honour is NOT ‘compromising the truth’ you know exists in the word to agree with the preacher just because others like whatever he is saying.



Honour is NOT allowing man-made doctrines or distortions of the word of God to go unquestioned for the sake of making its cultivators feel honoured or safe.



Honour is NOT ‘sitting quietly’ when you know that something is being taught that is against or does not line up with what Jesus taught and did.



Honour is NOT deliberately ‘failing to defend’ lies or untruths or misleading fabrications just because your pastor or favourite preacher supports them.







Later we will look at what honour is. But first, let’s put some questions up for your own thinking.



Is the practice of confronting an error being described as dishonourable divisive or or rebellious?



Is the practice of confronting mindsets and traditions that keep people in bondage being described as dishonourable divisive or rebellious?



Is the practice of asking questions when you believe that something is being taught that does not line up with what Jesus taught being described as dishonourable divisive or rebellious?



If you say yes to any of these statements, then I believe these pastors are teaching more on an “honour and obey this institution without questioning it’s doctrine” basis.





The repetitive ‘honour and obey’ talk established behavioural precepts reserved primarily for describing relational dynamics for a child toward its parent.



It originated from God through the prophets of old, was confirmed by Jesus' own teaching in his day, and referred to again by the writings of the apostles of his time.



Exodus 20:12 Honour your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.



Deuteronomy 5:16 Honour your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the LORD your God is giving you.



Matthew 19:19 honour your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbour as yourself.'



Ephesians 6:2 Honour your father and mother— which is the first commandment with a promise—





All other instructions on how to conduct yourself in relationships refer primarily to the values of respect and love, eg Relationship dynamics brother to brother



Jesus never walked around saying “fear me” or “fear one another” or “honour me”. He didn’t need to. Conversely, he said in John 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another”.



1 Peter 2:17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honour the king.



Philippians 2:28-30 Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may be glad and I may have less anxiety. Welcome him in the Lord with great joy, and honour men like him, because he almost died for the work of Christ, risking his life to make up for the help you could not give me.



Romans 13:7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honour, then honour.



Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellow-man has fulfilled the law.



Romans 12:10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honour one another above yourselves





Relationship dynamics toward elders



1 Timothy 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honour, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.



1 Peter 2:17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honour the king.



Isaiah 26:13 O LORD, our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us, but your name alone do we honour. (It is NOT for a pastor or elder that we should esteem with the honour we reserve for the Lord)



Other relationship dynamics are also made clear in 1 Timothy 5.





Now let’s look for a moment at the basic relationship between a teacher and a student, and then come back to the honour theme from a scriptural perspective.



It is a student’s place to ask questions; it is a teachers role to answer them. A student will usually ask a question to get more clarification on a matter of teaching that he has not grasped, desires to learn more about, has been confused by, or notices that the teachers comments conflict with the information written in the student handbook he's holding.



The relationship of a student and his teacher is completely the same for a disciple and his teacher (or an apostle / prophet / evangelist or pastor of God who teaches)



Disciples are not accusers, they are students, and they ask questions so they can learn from their teachers. Any leader of any church institution who resists or refuses to answer a disciple's questions about doctrine is not fit to be called an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher, and are exposing themselves to be in error by labelling their flock as divisive, rebels or accusers.



Coming under, or agreeing with a man made doctrine of honour that is being used as a mechanism to manipulate a group of students into feeling guilty for their act of presenting a question to ‘any given teaching’ will never justify any fear-mongering assertion from any leadership member of any church institution whatsoever claiming dishonour comes in the form of questioning doctrine. If it is deemed dishonourable or divisive to raise questions, cultish behaviour has most certainly given birth.



What might drive a person to act defensively and propogate doctrines which impute error to anyone who questions their beliefs?



For any church elder to go down this path where it has not first been established that there truly exists an outward rebellious carnal behaviour, it is quite likely that he or she either feels inadequate to give answer, unable to understand what they actually just preached, is in fear that his doctrine may just be a bunch of beliefs handed down over the years, or was a bunch of law-based nonsense aimed at controlling finance or loyalty, or perhaps feels offended to be questioned because of his high position, or believes that he lacks the honour he deserves, and none of those positions should justify engaging a weapon of man-made doctrine against disciples to force them to give it to him. If from out of his character were flowing Godly precepts, God himself will assure this man get the honour his actions deserve.





God promises to take care of making sure He himself will honour us if we manifest mature and Godly precepts



John 12:26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honour the one who serves me.



Psalm 91:15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honour him.



Psalm 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favour and honour; no good thing does he withholdfrom those whose walk is blameless.



Proverbs 13:18 He who ignores discipline comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honoured.



Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride brings him low, but a man of lowly spirit gains honour.



Proverbs 15:33 The fear of the LORD teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honour.



Proverbs 18:12 Before his downfall a man's heart is proud, but humility comes before honour.



Therefore, unless we are in pride, walking with a low self-esteem, or feel we lack the honour we believe we should expect, we do not ever have a need or directive from God to demand it from man, milk it out of man, or craft a doctrine to force it out of men by falsely accusing them of acting dishonourably toward us.



Moreover, is it not clear from Proverbs 15:33 and 18:12 that anyone professing to serve the Lord should be operating firstly in humility, which the Lord himself says comes BEFORE honour?





He actually warns us that we should NOT seek it for ourselves:



Matthew 6:2 So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honoured by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.



Proverbs 25:27 It is not good to eat too much honey, nor is it honourable to seek one's own honour.



Habakkuk 1:7 They are a feared and dreaded people; they are a law to themselves and promote their own honour.



John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:



John 7:18 He who speaks on his own does so to gain honour for himself, but he who works for the honour of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.





Are there any consequences for falsely accusing disciples of being divisive or rebellious for asking questions?



If the absence of obedience to conduct church affairs the way Jesus taught in Matthew 18:15-17 leads a pastor down a path of repeatedly addressing an entire congregation with honor and obey talk, without naming an offender, or taking all the other steps Jesus taught, does that person stand at risk of guilt for laying out a blanket accusation against the entire body of Christ present on that day?





Can we not just love one another, which in itself is one of the most comprehensive and all-encompassing commands of our Lord. Out of it will come respect where earned, care, generosity, humility then honor, esteem, gratefulness, gentleness, and every other fruit of love

I have now met several good Christian folk, mostly younger, some students, who have been hurt, and to some degree had been confused about "HOW" they ended up being labelled as dishnouring, divisive or rebellious. They are mostly the listeners or direct subjects of a few ministries that have caught on to a man-made doctrine that has become popular, has reached New Zealand and and many other parts of the world, and does more damage to younger Christians by the words or actions it deliberately does not mention during the delivery of it's voiced topics, the craft of insinuation via silent messaging.



What did dishonor look like for Jesus in his day?



Jesus spoke very clearly on the occasion where he was being dishonored. There was a people group primarily made up of the Pharisees who attempted to trap him with their crafty words. Jesus mention of dishonor is recorded in John 8:49 “I am not possessed by a demon, said Jesus, but I honor my Father and you dishonor me”.



Are such things really happening in churches today?



What degree of dishonor, abuse and carnality is actually occurring in churches today? It is certainly not happening in mine. What about yours? It must be happening somewhere, right?



If so, wherever it is occurring, I would ask if the leadership of that place is following Matthew 18:15-17. I would also ask if there is an effective discipleship course that teaches newly born’s biblical precepts of conduct. I would also ask if there is a culture in place that promotes 'leading by example', and in that, being effective in promoting the ways of love and respect by offering it to the body in the first place.



If not, what are these ‘other allegedly bad’ behaviors which necessitate some elders of some churches to aggressively and repetitively deliver doctrines in blanket form from a pulpit about honoring, and by doing so, causing many to fear that they are surrounded by or personally involved with dishonoring? The principle of building a culture of honor sounds great, but the underlying methods and many of its applications as seen at large are not being administered in love at all, but with an unspoken accusation that such offense exists.



But wherever such offensive does exist, in the verse I pointed out above Jesus himself set out clear instructions for those who have genuine cases of sin:



Matthew 18:15-17 If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.



Clearly, if any person in the church believes his brother has sinned against him, by way of alleged dishonor, or by any other way, the above is to be followed.



If Jesus own teaching is not being followed to address offense, and an alternative teaching has arisen to replace it, it is the doctrine of a man. And what disposition or alleged behavior between members of Christ’s Body does such a man's doctrine seek to control or mediate that Jesus' own teaching didn't sufficiently cover?





So what exactly are these ‘other allegedly sinful’ actions that pastors of today label as ‘dishonorable’? First let's have a brief look at what honor is not.



Honor does NOT mean ‘submission’ to a church elder because of his title, his position, the debt he holds against you, or his knowledge of your past sin.



Honor is NOT ‘obedience’ to what a man says on the basis that others fear to disobey him.



Honor is NOT ‘compromising the truth’ you know exists in the word to agree with the preacher just because others like whatever he is saying.



Honor is NOT allowing man-made doctrines or distortions of the word of God to go unquestioned for the sake of making its cultivators feel honored or safe.



Honor is NOT ‘sitting quietly’ when you know that something is being taught that is against or does not line up with what Jesus taught and did.



Honor is NOT deliberately ‘failing to defend’ lies or untruths or misleading fabrications just because your pastor or favorite preacher supports them.







Later we will look at what honor is. But first, let’s put some questions up for your own thinking.



Is the practice of confronting an error being described as dishonorable divisive or or rebellious?



Is the practice of confronting mindsets and traditions that keep people in bondage being described as dishonorable divisive or rebellious?



Is the practice of asking questions when you believe that something is being taught that does not line up with what Jesus taught being described as dishonorable divisive or rebellious?



If you say yes to any of these statements, then I believe these pastors are teaching more on an “honor and obey this institution without questioning it’s doctrine” basis.





The repetitive ‘honor and obey’ talk established behavioral precepts reserved primarily for describing relational dynamics for a child toward its parent.



It originated from God through the prophets of old, was confirmed by Jesus' own teaching in his day, and referred to again by the writings of the apostles of his time.



Exodus 20:12 Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.



Deuteronomy 5:16 Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the LORD your God is giving you.



Matthew 19:19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'



Ephesians 6:2 Honor your father and mother— which is the first commandment with a promise—





All other instructions on how to conduct yourself in relationships refer primarily to the values of respect and love, eg Relationship dynamics brother to brother



Jesus never walked around saying “fear me” or “fear one another” or “honor me”. He didn’t need to. Conversely, he said in John 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another”.



1 Peter 2:17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.



Philippians 2:28-30 Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may be glad and I may have less anxiety. Welcome him in the Lord with great joy, and honor men like him, because he almost died for the work of Christ, risking his life to make up for the help you could not give me.



Romans 13:7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.



Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellow-man has fulfilled the law.



Romans 12:10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves





Relationship dynamics toward elders



1 Timothy 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.



1 Peter 2:17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.



Isaiah 26:13 O LORD, our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us, but your name alone do we honor. (It is NOT for a pastor or elder that we should esteem with the honor we reserve for the Lord)



Other relationship dynamics are also made clear in 1 Timothy 5.





Now let’s look for a moment at the basic relationship between a teacher and a student, and then come back to the honor theme from a scriptural perspective.



It is a student’s place to ask questions; it is a teachers role to answer them. A student will usually ask a question to get more clarification on a matter of teaching that he has not grasped, desires to learn more about, has been confused by, or notices that the teachers comments conflict with the information written in the student handbook he's holding.



The relationship of a student and his teacher is completely the same for a disciple and his teacher (or an apostle / prophet / evangelist or pastor of God who teaches)



Disciples are not accusers, they are students, and they ask questions so they can learn from their teachers. Any leader of any church institution who resists or refuses to answer a disciple's questions about doctrine is not fit to be called an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher, and are exposing themselves to be in error by labeling their flock as divisive, rebels or accusers.



Coming under, or agreeing with a man made doctrine of honor that is being used as a mechanism to manipulate a group of students into feeling guilty for their act of presenting a question to ‘any given teaching’ will never justify any fear-mongering assertion from any leadership member of any church institution whatsoever claiming dishonor comes in the form of questioning doctrine. If it is deemed dishonorable or divisive to raise questions, cultish behavior has most certainly given birth.



What might drive a person to act defensively and propagate doctrines which impute error to anyone who questions their beliefs?



For any church elder to go down this path where it has not first been established that there truly exists an outward rebellious carnal behavior, it is quite likely that he or she either feels inadequate to give answer, unable to understand what they actually just preached, is in fear that his doctrine may just be a bunch of beliefs handed down over the years, or was a bunch of law-based nonsense aimed at controlling finance or loyalty, or perhaps feels offended to be questioned because of his high position, or believes that he lacks the honor he deserves, and none of those positions should justify engaging a weapon of man-made doctrine against disciples to force them to give it to him. If from out of his character were flowing Godly precepts, God himself will assure this man get the honor his actions deserve.





God promises to take care of making sure He himself will honor us if we manifest mature and Godly precepts



John 12:26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honour the one who serves me.



Psalm 91:15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honour him.



Psalm 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favour and honour; no good thing does he withholdfrom those whose walk is blameless.



Proverbs 13:18 He who ignores discipline comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honoured.



Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride brings him low, but a man of lowly spirit gains honour.



Proverbs 15:33 The fear of the LORD teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honour.



Proverbs 18:12 Before his downfall a man's heart is proud, but humility comes before honour.



Therefore, unless we are in pride, walking with a low self-esteem, or feel we lack the honour we believe we should expect, we do not ever have a need or directive from God to demand it from man, milk it out of man, or craft a doctrine to force it out of men by falsely accusing them of acting dishonourably toward us.



Moreover, is it not clear from Proverbs 15:33 and 18:12 that anyone professing to serve the Lord should be operating firstly in humility, which the Lord himself says comes BEFORE honour?





He actually warns us that we should NOT seek it for ourselves:



Matthew 6:2 So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honoured by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.



Proverbs 25:27 It is not good to eat too much honey, nor is it honourable to seek one's own honour.



Habakkuk 1:7 They are a feared and dreaded people; they are a law to themselves and promote their own honour.



John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:



John 7:18 He who speaks on his own does so to gain honour for himself, but he who works for the honour of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.





Are there any consequences for falsely accusing disciples of being divisive or rebellious for asking questions?



If the absence of obedience to conduct church affairs the way Jesus taught in Matthew 18:15-17 leads a pastor down a path of repeatedly addressing an entire congregation with honour and obey talk, without naming an offender, or taking all the other steps Jesus taught, does that person stand at risk of guilt for laying out a blanket accusation against the entire body of Christ present on that day?





Can we not just love one another, which in itself is one of the most comprehensive and all-encompassing commands of our Lord. Out of it will come respect where earned, care, generosity, humility then honour, esteem, gratefulness, gentleness, and every other fruit of love




1 comments:

spiritblood said...

interesting Brother Jose -I've seen it but felt guilty so I did not say much -interesting